Bi-Polar Baby

Albums, singles, songs and general Wildhearts banter
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Postby Wrenaldo » 15th May 07, 02:45

Hear hear...

BTW i think the metaphorical violence issue in the song isn't really to be taken as seriously championing spousal abuse or misogynism

Extreme emotions is what Ginger deals with; whether it is raging against women (Can't Drink You Pretty, Your Mouth, Suckerpunch, Headfuck, etc) or espousing their sublime beauty (Milesaway Girl, Beautiful Thing You).He brings in ideas and themes into all of his songs and is nothing if not varied. He's too intelligent to not be self-aware in the writing of Bi-Polar Baby. I do think the irony's amusing and correctly pointed out, but it in no way amounts to hypocrisy.

And anyway, i thought CJ had some input into the lyrical content of BPB, and he seems like a lovely chap. Always the quiet ones!
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Postby Workyticket » 23rd Oct 08, 17:50

OK... Normally I wouldn't bump a thread this old, but I've had a bit of a second wind with this song lately. You know how the first time you hear something you might like it - but it's only later that something happens to suddenly make you understand what it's actually talking about?

Well, I recently broke up with a bipolar woman and this song nails EXACTLY what it can be like to have a bipolar person in your life, especially if the 'bad' pole is more prominent than the 'good' one (Sorry if that sounds glib, it's just the best way I can put it right now). I was listening to it not long after the split and some of the lyrics were so close to the bone, it was almost like I'd written the lines myself - a feeling that's become very familiar to me over the 15 years I've been listening to Ginger's music.

As several people have rightly pointed out, bipolar is a chemical imbalance which the sufferer can only control to a limited degree. I think the song is about what the person who falls in love with the person with the imbalance goes through. More specifically, about that point where they, for all the understanding and tolerance they've felt and shown so far, they just can't see any sign of the person they fell for anymore in that partner... No matter how badly they DON'T want to come to that conclusion (What the hell has come over me?/Where's the person you used to be?/I guess somebody switched you while I was asleep)

A person with bipolar on a 'downward swing' has their way of perceiving the world warped and rewired in ways that can be alien, even horrifyingly so, to those close to them. It's hard enough being in a relationship with anyone who suspects the worst of you, or is looking to find fault in you (And let's face it, we've all been there); but when you're dealing with someone whose brain is chemically wired to jump at the most negative assumptions about everything, especially you, it's nigh on impossible to prove their doubts wrong. In fact, often the very attempt to prove yourself to them only seems to give them further 'proof' that you are 'the bad guy' (Sitting duck in the firing range... I'm in the shit but out of your league... Now your lies have become the truth/See the proof)

Ultimately, if the bipolar person cannot take some kind of control of these feelings be it through medication/therapy/talking to their partner/whatever, they will destroy the relationship while firmly believing that they are the ones who have been sinned against... Even though it's their own perceptions of their partner - and their refusal to recognise anything positive in them, or any efforts on their part to try and save the relationship - that have brought the breakdown about (Are you happy that they all believe you?/Ain't it funny how we shape the future?)

Now I honestly don't mean to offend anyone with these, and suspect that I'm probably sounding very harsh on people with bipolar - I don't mean to. I think I have enough understanding of the condition to have a lot of sympathy with those who suffer it. I know in my case, I went into that relationship wanting nothing but to help my ex, and understand her condition. Even as her behaviour got erratic and she got more and more critical of everything I did - even concerning stuff she liked about me even a month earlier - I always tried to see this as another part of her bipolar, another part of her that, if I was to accept her truly, I'd have to take on board and try to understand.

However, everybody has their limit. Her 'up' side very quickly disappeared totally, leaving just sullenness and accusations, and things happened that made me realise that I wouldn't be seeing the girl I'd loved these past few months again. She had convinced herself so thoroughly that she was being victimized that nothing she could do could possibly be worse than what I had supposedly already done (You got the right to do as you please)

Anyhoo, enough of the shaggy dog story. My point is, having a bipolar partner can be a hugely frustrating experience, because you end up not being able to tolerate a person you know is sick - but not only will they not let you help, they're seemingly determined to hate you, and NOTHING you do or say will avoid that. In fact, it's heartbreaking knowing that your very presence is fuelling the condition (I'd rather die than feed your disease anyway) In the worst cases, their behaviour can be so bad - even hateful - that you want to hate them but can't bring yourself to. Not only do you love them, you know it's because they're ill... Yet you can't stop the hurt and the instinctual need to hate back (Hence the knife/fucking world apart bit... That's not literal, but more the frustration that comes from taking things you never would from those you hate, from someone you love)

Fuck, I didn't mean to go on THIS long! Resurrecting long-dead threads, and with an essay at that... Ah well. It's just that looking over this thread again, I can't help but feel like some people have been a bit tough on Ginger's lyrics here. I can see why some might see it as being sexist/condoning woman bashing, but having been through a similar situation recently I think it's more about being treated so badly by someone you love that you want to hate them in that way, but can't bring yourself to. Therefore, you're left with no defense, no way out, nothing but a lover who doesn't want to want you anymore, for reasons you can't understand.

And yeah, you could argue that I'm twisting the song to suit my own experiences but I really don't know. The lyrics nail the situation so well and with such accuracy... I'm standing by this one.

Just as I stand by anyone who has actually made it to the end of this post. Your medal is in the mail :D
Last edited by Workyticket on 23rd Oct 08, 17:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Workyticket » 23rd Oct 08, 17:51

Yep, the thing is fuckin' HUGE! Sorry folks. Just hope it makes some kind of sense. I blame insomnia.
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Postby Pudu » 23rd Oct 08, 18:06

Workyticket wrote: Just as I stand by anyone who has actually made it to the end of this post. Your medal is in the mail :D


I will look forward to recieving it - cheers!
Too many fucking bubbles man!

the googles are a great place on the internets
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Postby oleandershelly » 23rd Oct 08, 18:42

I made it to the end, had to calm down and then reply. You may have you're own expierences, but anyone with Bi-Polar has trigger reactions. Normally it's past events in the relationship or recent events. I think there is two sides to every story and what you've said is a vast generalisation.

As much as I love Ginger, the guys lifestyle and his past infidelities and addictions wouldn't make him a breeze to live with. I find it funny that he dams ex's in his songs, but we all know he's no saint and a good few of his ex's have deserved medals for putting up with him.

P.s. this is not a feminist rant, but it felt good for getting it off my chest. lol
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Postby nuno75 » 23rd Oct 08, 19:10

One of my least favorite tracks on the album. I found that all instances of violent lyrics in this song and others come across as silly and childish. It's just too over the top or something. Can't quite explain it... but "I'd rather take this knife and jam it right through your heart. I wanna tear your fuckin' world apart" may possibly be the most wince-wrothy moment on the album for me.

I love this band more than any person should love any band... and I hate to be a hater... but I gotta say it like I see it.
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Postby Keith Richard » 23rd Oct 08, 20:04

nuno75 wrote:One of my least favorite tracks on the album. I found that all instances of violent lyrics in this song and others come across as silly and childish. It's just too over the top or something. Can't quite explain it... but "I'd rather take this knife and jam it right through your heart. I wanna tear your fuckin' world apart" may possibly be the most wince-wrothy moment on the album for me.

I love this band more than any person should love any band... and I hate to be a hater... but I gotta say it like I see it.


I hope not for your sake, but there may come time when can completely relate to this song.
"Some Days Just Fucking Suck"
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Postby Andwah » 23rd Oct 08, 21:10

I write songs using a once removed style, where the actual subject matter may not be referenced at all in the lyrics, this is my way of saying what i want without giving away too much.
Sometimes i can think of a simile and use that completely changing the flow, other times I write one true line I like and then a rhyming line that is a simile once again changing the flow or meaning.

It is just a song, that can mean anything to anyone.


If you notice on the new DVD ginger admits that New Flesh isn't his best lyrical moment as he was working against the clock. I've many songs that have lines just wedged in to fill a gap. Andy Warhol would just flick through magazines.
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Postby Dave C » 23rd Oct 08, 22:58

Workyticket. Spot on mate, fucking spot on. I'm going through something similar myself and those lyrics speak volumes to me at the mo.

Good luck fella, these women we love(d) truly test us.
Don't use See Tickets. They'll rip you off!
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Postby Jason_scorching_past » 25th Oct 08, 15:54

I must admith I don't particularly like that lyric myself. It seems a bit extreme in relation to the rest of the song.

But speaking of lyrics The Sweetest Song is venomous. Those are some real angry lyrics.
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Postby Robdj » 25th Oct 08, 21:29

nuno75 wrote:One of my least favorite tracks on the album. I found that all instances of violent lyrics in this song and others come across as silly and childish. It's just too over the top or something. Can't quite explain it... but "I'd rather take this knife and jam it right through your heart. I wanna tear your fuckin' world apart" may possibly be the most wince-wrothy moment on the album for me.

I love this band more than any person should love any band... and I hate to be a hater... but I gotta say it like I see it.


And from my perspective - living with an alcaholic (sometimes in recovery, but hey the drinking stopped but the anger got worse) - it felt quite liberating for me to hear a song expressing just how angry i felt at times for the abusive and manipulative way I was treated. Listening to the song made me accept that anger towards her.

Of course, it never changed the fact I loved (and still love) her - and i would never hurt her in any way or form. More than a year after we finally split she was sat on my sofa today and was just chatted as we often do now. I know we both still love and care for each other in a certain way, can count on each other and we are still very close.
Her illness (alcoholism) was a fucking nightmare to live through though and it meant a lot that this song gave me 'permission' to feel so angry at her. Feeling that doesn't mean you actually want/ intend to/ think its OK to go and physically or emotionally harm anyone.
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Postby nuno75 » 26th Oct 08, 06:30

Robdj wrote:
nuno75 wrote:One of my least favorite tracks on the album. I found that all instances of violent lyrics in this song and others come across as silly and childish. It's just too over the top or something. Can't quite explain it... but "I'd rather take this knife and jam it right through your heart. I wanna tear your fuckin' world apart" may possibly be the most wince-wrothy moment on the album for me.

I love this band more than any person should love any band... and I hate to be a hater... but I gotta say it like I see it.


And from my perspective - living with an alcaholic (sometimes in recovery, but hey the drinking stopped but the anger got worse) - it felt quite liberating for me to hear a song expressing just how angry i felt at times for the abusive and manipulative way I was treated. Listening to the song made me accept that anger towards her.

Of course, it never changed the fact I loved (and still love) her - and i would never hurt her in any way or form. More than a year after we finally split she was sat on my sofa today and was just chatted as we often do now. I know we both still love and care for each other in a certain way, can count on each other and we are still very close.
Her illness (alcoholism) was a fucking nightmare to live through though and it meant a lot that this song gave me 'permission' to feel so angry at her. Feeling that doesn't mean you actually want/ intend to/ think its OK to go and physically or emotionally harm anyone.


I don't think you guys are reading me right. I've got no problem with angry and even violent music and lyrics from this band or any other. I just don't feel like they were very well done in these particular instances. I can definitely relate to what the words are literally saying... I just think they come across tacky in these particular songs at those particular moments... and I'm honestly not even totally sure what it is about them that bugs me.

For example, "Destroy All Monsters" is far and away my favorite track on the disc, and probably top-ten of the whole discography... all the screaming about destroying this person is fine with me... but the line about "skin you alive" just rubs me wrong. In fact, I'd be fine with killing that whole intro.
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Postby Workyticket » 26th Oct 08, 13:29

oleandershelly wrote:I made it to the end, had to calm down and then reply. You may have you're own expierences, but anyone with Bi-Polar has trigger reactions. Normally it's past events in the relationship or recent events. I think there is two sides to every story and what you've said is a vast generalisation.


Apologies if I sounded like I was generalising too much, I didn't mean to do that. I wasn't talking about every person with bipolar, as I'm aware that people suffer it to various degrees, and with their own triggers etc. I was also aware I was referring to a situation in my own experience, and wasn't pretending to talk about bipolar as a definite thing - though in trying to explain myself it sounds like I may have been making the wrong impression, so again I apologise.

The point I was making was, the song is about what can happen when you're the partner, when you find yourself in the situation where even when you're trying to do the right thing, that other person interprets all these things you do as 'trigger' behaviour. Granted, that can happen in any relationship but when a mental illness is concerned it can not only make that person's reactions twice as intense, it also makes it even more frustrating when you try to show them that you do understand and want to be there for them - but all they seem to see is whatever hurtful behaviours others have put them through repeated over and over. The more you try and be there for them, be understanding and supportive, the more they misread your intentions and the more unsalvageable things get (And I'll make it clear again, I'm not talking about everyone with bipolar here but a certain kind of situation) This is especially true if you do make mistakes, because even the most innocuous ones become huge transgressions that can rot the relationship through before you've even had the chance to put them right.

The song seems to me to be about that point where you simply can't take anymore, where - be it from attrition or a single incident - you can't keep clinging to the memory of that person from when they were 'up', where for the first time you can no longer recognise them as that person you met. That's a horrible realization to come to, because not only do you feel like all that faith you put in them has gone to waste (And that can sometimes be years of effort), you feel as if you've given up on them even though you did everything you could to keep that faith alive. Again, this can happen in every relationship but when a condition such as bipolar is concerned it makes it twice as wrenching because you know how that illness is distorting their view and you WANT to help them through it - but what can you do if those efforts to help are being interpreted as attacks? Especially if you're dealing with someone who is inclined to retaliate to these supposed injustices twice as hard - suddenly you have someone who feels justified in doing anything, no matter how excessive or vicious these things are. Again, we're not talking about EVERYBODY with bipolar here, but these situations do happen.

I guess this is all hard to explain as I don't want to go into too much detail about my experiences, my point is the song captures a certain kind of situation very, very accurately, and the fact that it starts with 'What the hell has come over ME' is vital. True, nobody's an angel when a relationship fails - but what happens when you accept where you might not have acted perfectly, try to make things better and actually get treated worse for it? You're left with all this hurt and resentment, and you never wanted to feel that way but you reach the point where you can't shut those feelings away anymore... and that person you tried to understand, after all the fighting you've done to keep faith in them, finally becomes truly alien to you. The 'knife/heart' line may be a bit melodramatic (Agree with Nuno to an extent on that one), but it refers to the point where the shit you're taking has become far beyond any mistakes you have made and you have to face your own anger.

It's like any breakup - sure, both parties contribute in their own way. But does that mean you blame yourself for every split you've gone through just because the other person has a perspective too? Ideally you try and understand where you could've done things better, but sometimes you just have to fight your corner and believe in your own judgement.

I'm sure Ginger can be a huge pain in the arse in a relationship, as can we all, but we all reach a point where some things happen that are just wrong, no matter what the circumstances. Where the presence of a mental illness is no longer justification for what is being done. I know that sounds unfair, even discriminatory, but there's only so much a person can take no matter how tolerant they are. It's not about men or women, it's not even about talking about bipolar sufferers as a group (Look, I'm certain there are bipolar people out theere who are wonderful partners, I really do) - it becomes about the situation between two people, and what is acceptable. When an illness is involved you do become more patient and slow to judge, and you do forgive a lot. The song is about what you go through when that emotional dam finally breaks.

Shit. The next round of medals are in the mail, folks!
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Postby tyladog » 31st Oct 08, 17:45

Should have been a single - I've said it from day 1.
One of the catchiest songs on the entire cd.
It had "radio hit" written all over it.
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt.
Then it's hillarious."

Bill Hicks
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Postby WiredOut » 9th Nov 08, 19:44

I'd forgotten about this topic. Has added quasi-relevance for me now after the breakdown of a recent relationship with a very fucked-up girl who clearly suffers from deep depressive episodes. Although she'd deny it. Which is one of the reasons she will continue to be depressed.

Don't think she genuinely had the manic highs to make a clear case for bipolar disorder but a graph of her mood swings would have enough undulating peaks and valleys to give Mount Everest a serious hard-on. If imaginary mountainous oscilloscope porn is Mount Everest's thing. Maybe it is. I dunno.

And the fallout from the mayhem finally shunted me onto anti-depressants at 29 after years of battling suicidal ideation (not suicidal intentions, importantly) and trying to pull myself up by my own emotional bootstraps. She was cute though. And maybe that's the point. :wink:
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana."
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