A discussion following Pinnick's 'Ask Ginger' question.

[geordierussell]

Ginger, in the recent article in Kerrang you stated that, as far as depression goes, taking medication is just pushing your problems off in the corner.

I'd like to know why you feel justified in making that statement. It may be what works for you, but isn't it irresponsible and naive to think that everyone with depression (especially clinical depression) can get by without prescription medication?

As someone who suffers from this, I would like to think I have a small perspective on this.

Drugs do 2 things
1. Delay dealing with the actual problem at hand. At the end of the day bipolar/manicdepression is a mental disorder and drugs only delay dealing with what is causing the problem. We do not like to talk about what is causing the problem because it makes us feel vulnerable, but getting over that MASSIVE hurdle is the single best thing we can do.
2. Make the drug companies very rich. Simple as.

I've no doubt I will be "shot down in flames" but fuck you all. I have been there, see it done it and came out the other side better for the experience. However, my cure is not not your cure.(is that a good album title?)

It may be that for the very worst cases they may not have BP/MD but have other chemical imbalances or undiagonsed issues. It may be that their disorder are something different altogether. Now this is where medicine gets fuzzy.

25 years ago, you had cancer. Now you can have foot/hair/tooth cancer, whereas in the past the diagnosis was vague to say the least. In the past it was just cancer. Now you can have cancer of the bloody toenail...

But before I sign off, just ask yourself one question.

Did neolithic man, caveman or saxons suffer from manic depression/bi-polar and if they did were they not just pissed off because they didn't bring the bacon home?

[Zo]

Ginger, in the recent article in Kerrang you stated that, as far as depression goes, taking medication is just pushing your problems off in the corner.

I'd like to know why you feel justified in making that statement. It may be what works for you, but isn't it irresponsible and naive to think that everyone with depression (especially clinical depression) can get by without prescription medication?

As someone who suffers from this, I would like to think I have a small perspective on this.

Drugs do 2 things
1. Delay dealing with the actual problem at hand. At the end of the day bipolar/manicdepression is a mental disorder and drugs only delay dealing with what is causing the problem. We do not like to talk about what is causing the problem because it makes us feel vulnerable, but getting over that MASSIVE hurdle is the single best thing we can do.
2. Make the drug companies very rich. Simple as.

I've no doubt I will be "shot down in flames" but fuck you all. I have been there, see it done it and came out the other side better for the experience. However, my cure is not not your cure.(is that a good album title?)

It may be that for the very worst cases they may not have BP/MD but have other chemical imbalances or undiagonsed issues. It may be that their disorder are something different altogether.

Actually, I fully agree with you there. Been though it myself. All the medication did for me was to 'numb' my feelings.. and when I stopped the tablets it all came back worse than ever. I was in a terrible state. What helped me out of it was talking to a few close friends, a LOT. I was lucky that between four or five people there would always be someone there for me, whatever time of day or night. It's those people that got me through it. Not the drugs, they just made it worse in the long run by masking it.

I think in a lot of cases doctors use medication far too freeley for mental health problems - could it be that there just isn't the funding for counselling for everyone that needs it and it's cheaper to make them feel temporarily stable with some drugs? I think so.

[Radish]

I think in a lot of cases doctors use medication far too freeley for mental health problems - could it be that there just isn't the funding for counselling for everyone that needs it and it's cheaper to make them feel temporarily stable with some drugs? I think so.

At the moment, on the NHS you can get (after consultation with a GP) a maximum of 6 counselling sessions to deal with a mental health issue. That's 6 hours. Maximum. With no guarantee (or much chance?) of sorting the problem out, most cases only get as far as identifying the real problem. Hence the drugs, quick bodge job that in many cases won't solve the problem, but might just might give the pharmaceuticals another customer for life...

[Zo]

Yup, I know. That's what I got. And I wasn't encouraged to talk about my problems either - it was all just 'coping strategies'. Which, to be honest, were arse. Doesn't matter how much deep breathing I do, my ex is always gonna be a threatening bully.

After the 6 sessions, I was then told I couldn't have any more and if I felt I needed any more help I'd have to pay privately.

Lovely.

[geordierussell]

I didn't get offered any of those services, I just woke up one morning and realised that I need to talk to someone.

[michelle]

Ginger, in the recent article in Kerrang you stated that, as far as depression goes, taking medication is just pushing your problems off in the corner.

I'd like to know why you feel justified in making that statement. It may be what works for you, but isn't it irrepsonsible and naive to think that everyone with depression (especially clinical depression) can get by without prescription medication?

He's perfectly justified in what he said. As an ex drug addict, he probably came to the conclusion that drugs, whether heroin or anti depressants, we're all doing the same thing,,,,,,covering up his emotions. Now he just lets himself feel what he wants to feel and waits for the bad feelings to pass. It's not naive at all, I think it's a mature attitude accepting that life sucks sometimes and you have have to face your issues head on.

Yay for him!

[pinnick]

Ginger, in the recent article in Kerrang you stated that, as far as depression goes, taking medication is just pushing your problems off in the corner.

I'd like to know why you feel justified in making that statement. It may be what works for you, but isn't it irresponsible and naive to think that everyone with depression (especially clinical depression) can get by without prescription medication?

As someone who suffers from this, I would like to think I have a small perspective on this.

Drugs do 2 things
1. Delay dealing with the actual problem at hand. At the end of the day bipolar/manicdepression is a mental disorder and drugs only delay dealing with what is causing the problem. We do not like to talk about what is causing the problem because it makes us feel vulnerable, but getting over that MASSIVE hurdle is the single best thing we can do.
2. Make the drug companies very rich. Simple as.

First of all, to compare modern humans to neolithic man is comparing apples & oranges. There's tons of proof that the younger generation growing up right now have brains that are "wiring" up differently than the last generation's, so there's no basis for comparison.

Secondly, drugs don't delay dealing with what the real problem is in ALL cases. Making blanket statements based on your own experiences can be deadly for extreme cases (hence my criticism of Ginger's quote). Considering I was suicidal due to my anxiety disorder (try having panic attacks for 48 hours straight) and depression, I needed medication to give me some chemical balance so I was ABLE to apply counseling on how to deal with my panic attacks. Without medication, there was no hope of doing it on my own.

And the medication I take (currently down to the lowest dose possible) has never made me feel numb or given me the ability to ignore my problems. I still have anxiety every day that I must fight through. It just puts me on a level playing field with those "normal" people.

[firedup]

Ginger, in the recent article in Kerrang you stated that, as far as depression goes, taking medication is just pushing your problems off in the corner.

I'd like to know why you feel justified in making that statement. It may be what works for you, but isn't it irresponsible and naive to think that everyone with depression (especially clinical depression) can get by without prescription medication?

As someone who suffers from this, I would like to think I have a small perspective on this.

Drugs do 2 things
1. Delay dealing with the actual problem at hand. At the end of the day bipolar/manicdepression is a mental disorder and drugs only delay dealing with what is causing the problem. We do not like to talk about what is causing the problem because it makes us feel vulnerable, but getting over that MASSIVE hurdle is the single best thing we can do.
2. Make the drug companies very rich. Simple as.

First of all, to compare modern humans to neolithic man is comparing apples & oranges. There's tons of proof that the younger generation growing up right now have brains that are "wiring" up differently than the last generation's, so there's no basis for comparison.

Secondly, drugs don't delay dealing with what the real problem is in ALL cases. Making blanket statements based on your own experiences can be deadly for extreme cases (hence my criticism of Ginger's quote). Considering I was suicidal due to my anxiety disorder (try having panic attacks for 48 hours straight) and depression, I needed medication to give me some chemical balance so I was ABLE to apply counseling on how to deal with my panic attacks. Without medication, there was no hope of doing it on my own.

And the medication I take (currently down to the lowest dose possible) has never made me feel numb or given me the ability to ignore my problems. I still have anxiety every day that I must fight through. It just puts me on a level playing field with those "normal" people.

Different people have diferent problems that require different approaches. In this country, doctors give out pills far too easily. However, on the whole I think they do help. I too have sufered from anxiety and was having panic attacks daily. The medication has taken these away altogether without any of the side effects some of you describe. As someone who has studied Cognitive Science and had the experience 1st hand, I concur that you cannot 'talk your way out of' a chemical inbalance

[29xTheJames]

Ginger is not alone in his view. I share the same thoughts. I have suffered with depression & suicide for the past 5 years and I know first hand that the pills do work, but you gotta do so much yourself.

I have felt 'clean' since last Feb, although I ended up depended on anti-depressants to the point that come September I had to go cold turkey from them as they were seriously damaging my liver. So for 7 months I felt free of depression but I also felt too weak without to be 'fine' without them. I guess you could say I was addicted and my liver problems were a result (which they were, according to the hospital) of it.

Ive posted else where on the forum that Ive been to see my doctor who has told me I need stress management therapy. Well, thats true, but the Doc also said I was showing signs of depression again and should "go back to Prozac on 20mg". I told her that I feel that Im at a point where Ive been the most mentally clear since I was 17 (when the depression all started) and that I know if Iam depressed again I can beat it by my own means.

I asked about if its true if going to a gym or excrising helps with these issues and she said yes. I told her Im strong enough to know the pills arent the souloution and I have faith in myself to be better than it. I agree with Ginger, pills put your problems in a corner; not make them go away. The fact that from 2002-2006 I was on the pills for 70% of that period shows it. My patterns read like this:

Jan '02 - Oct '02
May '04 - May '05
Oct '05 - Sept '06 (although I should of really came off in Feb '06)

The pills can make you better and lift you out of the pit. And when you come off them your fine and carry on, but with me it would always creep up on me. Its never gone unless you mentally fight it - not just relying on pills.

Maybe Iam depressed again, but compared to what I had it years ago this seems like a walk in the park. Whenever Ive been in the pit before Ive always thought theres no way out. But this time I know there is, Im better than it and stronger. These arent the thoughts of someone wanting to end life, these are the thoughts of someone wanting to live life.

THERE IS people out there who feel and need pills. Just because Ginger, me and some others say life without pills is better does not mean that person should feel even worse and give up pills. Like I said, they help lift you out. They are not totally useless. I think Ginger knows this. After years of issues, he's came to the same point of life with it as me: You are the anti-body.

But my view is I want to do this 'on my own'. I feel more mentally strong now than I ever have (although we all have 'clouds' now and then).

I could go on and on, but I think Ginger was right to dimiss anti-depressants. Plus, the people who believe in them are right. Its your right to take them if you requiire them, listen to what feels right to you and do it.

[Marc]

I wont confess to knowing a lot about this but had a GF who was a depressive. When she was off the pills she was happy, when she was on them she just got worse, but once on them hung onto them for dear life when even she could see what worked and what didnt. She had major issues with close family and friends that she never really dealt with. Diffferent things affect different people.

But one thing I always though was no one is born a manic depressive (or are they?), isn't it usually triggered from something that happens, and I just seen others not deal with the cause but try to cure whats going on at the time, rather than get rid fo the cause and move on.

And of 4 people I know who have been in this state they were all religious, I could never work out if this was a cause, trying to grasp onto something that they can't see, hear etc, always wondered if that was a major thing - one gave up the church and put her beliefs to one side and concentrated on herself and it done her the world of good. Again different things for different people.

Don't shoot me down please, I may well have offended some poeple and thats not my intention, neither do I want to get into a row about it, those are just my experiences from life and being around people who suffered. I also did find it a bit infectious, it would pull me down, I had to break away from some of those people because they were affecting my life too much and I found my self almost having a 'sympathy' depression because of them.

[Velvet Presley]

I suppose my story is more or less the same as most of the ones above. I spent two years taking anti-depressants, and every day hoped that they would kick in and make the world right.

I agree with the feeling of numbness that crossed many of you; I felt no happier, I just became more stable. My mood swings and troughs were replaced by a constant misery. This sounds like a bad thing, and at the time I thought it was, but in hindsight I realise that this gave me a level of stability that let me think.

The result was that I signed up for private counselling, which I spent little under two years in. Although it was unpleasant to talk about what my making was, ultimately it did me a world of good.

After stopping taking the tablets I let the therapy become more intense; I became more honest and logical. My counsellor kept stressing that in fact the counselling was not to relieve me of my burdens but to learn how to accept them, and eventually I did.

Now the lower moments still come, but I don't let them rest.

I generally say that I don't think that the tablets were the right thing for me, but I'm never entirely sure if that's true. At very least, they've given me a perspective on My Current Self Vs. My Previous Self.

I don't doubt, however, that for some people it is enough. It would be ignorant of me to say otherwise. Each to their own, etc.

As pinnick said, it's apples and oranges...there's just some cave men still out there.

[29xTheJames]

What Presley said is right, the pills didnt make you happy, they gave you a level to live on. Your on that level till your ready to leave: there's no going down and thats all the pills can offer.

Another thing about pills is people who seem to think as soon as youve took one your gonna be all smilely faces and happy. Like your taking drugs or something. So called friends would do 'impressions' of me taking pills. They would act down and sad, then opretend to swallow prozac and start smiling like murders scfeaming "IM HAPPY BOY NOW, YEEEAAHHH!!!" Well thats bullshit, people who are scared of something thats beyond their knowledge will say that. Whenever I was on Prozac and other pills it would take months for them to 'work' and even then I wasnt happy. More so with their 'idea' of bouncing off the walls.

[SteveP]

My own experience is limited to depression caused by losing my job (being sacked, it's on here elsewhere if you can be bothered to find it), having the self confidence battered out of me by: parents (controlled environment and upbringing- I wasn't beaten or abused, I just received quite regular belts around the lughole), teachers (who said I would never amount to anything), team leaders and bosses who never gave me an opportunity to progress to higher grades. Lack of self esteem, coming from not being encouraged to be express myself, to this day, I can't promote myself in job interviews.

I was determined not to go onto medication, and was offered counselling at my local hospital, so far it's been good and has got me to address the problems in my life and actually work my way round to facing them and maybe even getting them out of my mind

[kitescreech]

Working as a Psychiatric Nurse, Ive found anti-depressants very useful. It is important to realise there are 2 types of derpression - endogenous (eg a chemocal imbalance) and exogenous (eg loss of job, bereavment etc). Anti-depressants will do NOTHING for you if you have exogenous depression, but work well with endogenous. Yes they have side effects (and sometimes its a balnce between illness and side effect) but compared to a full blown clinical ward admission depression there is no contest.

But bear in mind my view point is from a clinical model and I see the absolute worst cases of mental illness, where medication is nearly always needed.

[Orient]

I've just started training in mental health so whilst I don't claim to know all the answers one thing I have learnt is that depression/anxiety etc is such a broad term and every sufferer is different and reacts differently to different treatments and strategies. Basically just because Ginger or anyone else did/does not benefit from anti-depressants does not mean that everyone else will be the same.

Anti-depressants are invaluable in some cases, life saving infact.